by Jenifer Toksvig
I’m incredibly excited, in a first-day-of-rehearsals sort of way. The MThe:UK musical theatre conference at LIPA was a huge success, and it inspired some brilliant opportunities for musical theatre in the UK.
We gathered with no set agenda, and let our passions guide us within Open Space Technology. The group represented further and higher education, universities and drama schools, regional theatres and London-based producers, actors, writers, directors, composers, and song, dance, drama.
Within that room we had the potential to create a West End show, but what we discovered was a longing to find something else, something beyond the West End and reality TV.
Not that we don’t love those just as much as everyone who wants to see who could be Dorothy, anyone who gets those butterflies in their stomach standing in the foyer of a big London theatre…
But there is so much more to musical theatre in the UK. I listened to Laurie Sansom of the Royal & Derngate in Northampton passionately discussing musicals with Susie Dumbreck from the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama, and with Sally Ann Gritton from London’s Mountview Academy of Theatre Arts, and they all seemed to be saying the same thing: we all need to collaborate.
There is a constant struggle for funding in the UK. Mercury Musical Developments struggles to find the money to fund the development of new writing. Musical Theatre Matters struggles to fund the nurturing of new producers. Educators fight to pay additional creative practitioners, and theatres fail to put on shows.
Never mind the practical problems, though. The most frustrating thing about the lack of funding is that it creates the worst kind of emotional environment in which to develop and nurture the genre of British musical theatre.
You have to keep fighting just to stand still.
What if we could forget about funding? What if we already had everything we need to turn that negative energy into a celebration of musical theatre in the UK?
Call me crazy, but I think we should try it. At the conference, several institutions offered to host smaller satellite conferences around the country, to which we can invite anyone, everyone who has an interest in musical theatre.
Using Open Space Technology, we could actually create musical theatre in that short space of time: re-stage a bit of a traditional musical in a new way, or create a new short musical from scratch! We could just have a bit of a sing-song, or we could design an outrageous set for an imaginary production of something in our local park.
… and what if we’re then inspired to take that crazy design and see if the council will let us actually do it? What if the creation of that short musical involves a regional theatre director who offers some studio space to see if it can be developed further?
What if a director gets to try a bit of writing? A producer get to direct something? In Open Space, anything is possible: the sign on the wall says “Be prepared to be surprised”.
Now imagine a weekend in which every regional venue in the country, and every drama school and university, opens their doors and gives some time and some space for a nationwide Open Space creative musical theatre event.
Imagine the whole of the UK gathering wherever they are, to create and explore and devise and experience musical theatre in all its glorious forms, with no set agenda other than our passions and our creativity.
We’d be bringing storytelling through song and dance back to its roots: in the local community.
We could call it Reality Musical Theatre!
Let’s do it, for real. Spread the word. If you have a venue and could be part of this event network, drop me an email at jenifertoksvig [at] gmail [dot] com or pass this information on to your local theatre, drama school, college, youth group or NODA society and tell them to get in touch with me.
Everyone should join in! This isn’t just about musical theatre. This is about British Musical Theatre.
Thursday, 24 June 2010
Thursday, 17 June 2010
A new national strategy for musical theatre
Titles of sessions called: What should a training for musical theatre creation contain? (Nick Phillips) and How can we facilitate collaboration between our students and regional theatres to promote non-West End opportunities and rep style training? (Susie)
Participants: Nick, Susie, Jen, Sally, Sally Anne, Amanda, Onur, Helen, Luke, Louisa, Katie
All musical theatre practitioners should have a grounding in all areas, because we are about integration.
Arts Ed are just introducing a post-grad for collaborative directors, choreographers and MDs – is this about the technical aspects of those crafts, or is it about collaboration and the collaborative process?
In the room, the director, choreographer, MD, composers, writers, librettists are all equal partners in the process.
We’ve all been talking about what we mean by musical theatre. Working at FE and being committed to looking at new work, finding collaborations, making new stuff, seems incredibly important.
One proposal might be that each of us could offer something together as a collective of institutions. Trying to make it a formal academic qualification would force it to be institutionally based which might make it a problem. Could we bring a bunch of us together and learn in one central place?
We’ve talked about mentorship. Can we find a) a place where this could happen and b) mentorship of some kind.
Level of quality is variable. What we need in educational terms is maybe a national strategy.
Should we not use the word training. Sharing each others’ work, not about having a central governing body who dictate what we do. It’s about development. About gathering and sharing our passions collectively.
Projects that come in are underwhelming because of lack of understanding of craft. A discovery of craft is what we need, not teaching.
It was great that students came to the conference too.
OST that includes students is a big thing we all get chucked into. Industry engagement too. Not a showcase, but bring in agents too so their voice is part of it.
We will do this annually, and everyone will be invited, but it will remain focused on education / training / the start of people’s career.
Can this be part of courses? Part of the course handbook? Week-long conference for everyone. Sample of students from everywhere. Also practitioners who are out there doing it.
Esp useful for post-grads who only have a year to do as much as they possibly can.
Internal OST, also smaller collabs. Playground weeks between two or three institutions.
Every institution is doing their own thing, in an excellent way, but can we have regular staff swaps? Can we share our techniques?
How does HE engage with FE? That could give students more info about auditioning for HE, which empowers them.
Musical theatre is changing, dramatically. The sadness is you still get people who do external exams that are nationally validated, but they don’t cover the reality of the crafts, yet people invest in that.
National Strategy could include:
- Annual OST for everyone – a talking one for three days
- Practical OST creative project: Joe Public can come and join in or watch or collaborate with us as we all use OST to create small / big continuous creative collaboration projects that are ongoing throughout one week. This would give opportunity for Joe Public to comment and express what they like or don’t like.
Would we have a bit of banging head against wall with some institutions? Yes, for a while, but eventually they would join in if we make this open and supportive.
Producers might be focusing on West End product, that’s what they’re focusing on and filtering for, let’s look at developing producers to access the regions, where there are people who love musicals but don’t get to go to London and see shows.
Regionals – how can we work with them?
Dundee have their graduate places, so there are ties with RSAMD, but these places sort of need to be open to the whole country. Having done rep and learnt craft in rep, that was the best training ground you could have. The West End is not a good training ground.
Health and safety has been part of stopping rep being training grounds. Stopping being producing houses has also inhibited that. Instead of trying to find funding for our institutions, could we find funding in order to place students in rep?
Theatre companies should be within education. Some educational establishments have theatre company structures within the student body. That allows for a different kind of vocational, hands-on learning.
Is there private sponsorship outside the weekend?
Would West End angels sponsor this kind of thing? These regional collaborations.
Regional Theatres used to have two Equity cards they could give away. Now that doesn’t exist, it’s allowed them not to have that responsibility. Shouldn’t that be part of their funding requirements?
But we don’t have to be limited in physical space. We can do this in the streets. Let’s take this to the doorstep of the regionals and use their venues as our space.
NODA use Leicester because it’s right in the middle of the country. Should we stay away from London?
This coming semester, one at LIPA, one at RSAMD, one at Mountview: a weekend.
LIPA: Last week October into first week November – Everyman?
Mountview: Second week of Sept
RSAMD: November
Participants: Nick, Susie, Jen, Sally, Sally Anne, Amanda, Onur, Helen, Luke, Louisa, Katie
All musical theatre practitioners should have a grounding in all areas, because we are about integration.
Arts Ed are just introducing a post-grad for collaborative directors, choreographers and MDs – is this about the technical aspects of those crafts, or is it about collaboration and the collaborative process?
In the room, the director, choreographer, MD, composers, writers, librettists are all equal partners in the process.
We’ve all been talking about what we mean by musical theatre. Working at FE and being committed to looking at new work, finding collaborations, making new stuff, seems incredibly important.
One proposal might be that each of us could offer something together as a collective of institutions. Trying to make it a formal academic qualification would force it to be institutionally based which might make it a problem. Could we bring a bunch of us together and learn in one central place?
We’ve talked about mentorship. Can we find a) a place where this could happen and b) mentorship of some kind.
Level of quality is variable. What we need in educational terms is maybe a national strategy.
Should we not use the word training. Sharing each others’ work, not about having a central governing body who dictate what we do. It’s about development. About gathering and sharing our passions collectively.
Projects that come in are underwhelming because of lack of understanding of craft. A discovery of craft is what we need, not teaching.
It was great that students came to the conference too.
OST that includes students is a big thing we all get chucked into. Industry engagement too. Not a showcase, but bring in agents too so their voice is part of it.
We will do this annually, and everyone will be invited, but it will remain focused on education / training / the start of people’s career.
Can this be part of courses? Part of the course handbook? Week-long conference for everyone. Sample of students from everywhere. Also practitioners who are out there doing it.
Esp useful for post-grads who only have a year to do as much as they possibly can.
Internal OST, also smaller collabs. Playground weeks between two or three institutions.
Every institution is doing their own thing, in an excellent way, but can we have regular staff swaps? Can we share our techniques?
How does HE engage with FE? That could give students more info about auditioning for HE, which empowers them.
Musical theatre is changing, dramatically. The sadness is you still get people who do external exams that are nationally validated, but they don’t cover the reality of the crafts, yet people invest in that.
National Strategy could include:
- Annual OST for everyone – a talking one for three days
- Practical OST creative project: Joe Public can come and join in or watch or collaborate with us as we all use OST to create small / big continuous creative collaboration projects that are ongoing throughout one week. This would give opportunity for Joe Public to comment and express what they like or don’t like.
Would we have a bit of banging head against wall with some institutions? Yes, for a while, but eventually they would join in if we make this open and supportive.
Producers might be focusing on West End product, that’s what they’re focusing on and filtering for, let’s look at developing producers to access the regions, where there are people who love musicals but don’t get to go to London and see shows.
Regionals – how can we work with them?
Dundee have their graduate places, so there are ties with RSAMD, but these places sort of need to be open to the whole country. Having done rep and learnt craft in rep, that was the best training ground you could have. The West End is not a good training ground.
Health and safety has been part of stopping rep being training grounds. Stopping being producing houses has also inhibited that. Instead of trying to find funding for our institutions, could we find funding in order to place students in rep?
Theatre companies should be within education. Some educational establishments have theatre company structures within the student body. That allows for a different kind of vocational, hands-on learning.
Is there private sponsorship outside the weekend?
Would West End angels sponsor this kind of thing? These regional collaborations.
Regional Theatres used to have two Equity cards they could give away. Now that doesn’t exist, it’s allowed them not to have that responsibility. Shouldn’t that be part of their funding requirements?
But we don’t have to be limited in physical space. We can do this in the streets. Let’s take this to the doorstep of the regionals and use their venues as our space.
NODA use Leicester because it’s right in the middle of the country. Should we stay away from London?
This coming semester, one at LIPA, one at RSAMD, one at Mountview: a weekend.
LIPA: Last week October into first week November – Everyman?
Mountview: Second week of Sept
RSAMD: November
Jen will try to arrange these gatherings, and others regionally.
Royal Society of Arts: headquarters on the Strand, which would be a central London location.
Laurie in Northampton: might do a one-day mid-England gathering.
Connect up with internationals like MTEA.
Individual word-spreading about collaborating with regionals.
Talk to some of the major institutions and do some cross-over work. Workshop exchanges. Won’t cost a lot of money. Part of professional development.
Are we getting enough support to AD in the regionals so we’re doing practical work as well as teaching, so we get time out to go and really do the work.
We’re all practitioners and we should be out there doing it and remaining current. You get stuck in the world of modules sometimes.
Part of a national network. We should all be part of a national network.
Funding could be tiny bits from different places.
Opportunity to re-explore well-known works to get that recognition with which to draw in audience, but to show re-invention.
The way young opera singers are developed: touring opera and such, smaller scale opportunities. Smaller regional opportunities help students develop their careers.
Re-envisaging new work: could we as practitioners come together with students and break away into pockets, explore different aspects of well-known shows. Bring in regionals, inspire them with that.
Part of this big creative collaboration event could be the reinvention of old shows.
Is the big creative collaboration event a day or a weekend at every regional venue in the country? Do we all get involved using OST to create stuff?
We do regional satellites first, some collaborate relationships, and then we do the national weekend.
Keep it live. No TV. Let’s generate some live theatre electricity. Do we ban cameras?
Everyone is going to start individually spreading the word about this, to empower the regions so they embrace the opportunity when we come to that area.
Laurie in Northampton: might do a one-day mid-England gathering.
Connect up with internationals like MTEA.
Individual word-spreading about collaborating with regionals.
Talk to some of the major institutions and do some cross-over work. Workshop exchanges. Won’t cost a lot of money. Part of professional development.
Are we getting enough support to AD in the regionals so we’re doing practical work as well as teaching, so we get time out to go and really do the work.
We’re all practitioners and we should be out there doing it and remaining current. You get stuck in the world of modules sometimes.
Part of a national network. We should all be part of a national network.
Funding could be tiny bits from different places.
Opportunity to re-explore well-known works to get that recognition with which to draw in audience, but to show re-invention.
The way young opera singers are developed: touring opera and such, smaller scale opportunities. Smaller regional opportunities help students develop their careers.
Re-envisaging new work: could we as practitioners come together with students and break away into pockets, explore different aspects of well-known shows. Bring in regionals, inspire them with that.
Part of this big creative collaboration event could be the reinvention of old shows.
Is the big creative collaboration event a day or a weekend at every regional venue in the country? Do we all get involved using OST to create stuff?
We do regional satellites first, some collaborate relationships, and then we do the national weekend.
Keep it live. No TV. Let’s generate some live theatre electricity. Do we ban cameras?
Everyone is going to start individually spreading the word about this, to empower the regions so they embrace the opportunity when we come to that area.
SPREAD THE WORD!
How Can Support Organisations Support New, Developing And Up-And-Coming Producers And The Production Of New Musicals
Convener: Laoise Davidson (pronounced Lisha)
Participants: Donna Unwin, Chris Moore, Lauren Murphy, Andrew Tilling, Matt Finch, Mary, Andrew Guervin, Gail,
The aim of this session was to find some practical ways that Musical Theatre support organisations can help new musical theatre writing get produced…
Several themes emerged:
Musical Theatre Website
Development of a new “DEDICATED MUSICAL THEATRE WEBSITE” to share information, stimulate collaboration and signpoint to different resources – to include:
• A centralised database to make it possible/easier for producers and educational productions to access new writing and create collaborations with new writers:
o The database will enable anyone to access work from different sources – eg Weinberger etc
o The database will include practical Information such as number of male/female parts and voices required to be easily visible / searchable / comparable
o The database can be peer reviewed – eg audience members or producers can give their opinions on the work and give them a star rating
o Peer reviewers to have an E-bay style system to show what shows they have liked / not liked etc (will help stop crankpots)
o Audience reviewers section – as with peer reviewers but for non-industry members
• Create a list of resources for new musical theatre – including resources for new writers and producers etc.
• Online Forum to discuss new work
• Create online “dating” site for Musical Theatre. Members to have profiles similar to regular dating sites. Match people based on shared values, opportunities etc. Creating opportunities to meet different professionals – promote yourself and your talents online
• Ideas Central – a section of the website where you can post your great idea that you will never see happen, but someone else just might!
Writer specific training and opportunities
• Need for Musical Theatre specific writing courses – this should be proposed as part of a National Strategy. There are many courses for screen writers, creative writers etc, but none that anyone in the group knew about specifically for writers apart from short courses like AMOS or those run by MMD. Courses would be specifically tailored for:
o Book writers – most in need of these!
o Lyric writers
o Composers
o Choreographers – too often left out!
• Masterclasses / Pitching Events for new writers to present their work to producers. Dragon’s Den style events with feedback and possible contracts up for grabs.
• Better feedback loop required for new work from audiences and industry (possibly introduced in new website – see points above).
• Make it easier to workshop new material – take it to Educational institutes – gives students opportunities to perform new work and gets airing for new work.
• Business courses for new writers – to help them focus on delivery.
o EG CGO’s AMOS (A Month of Sundays) course at LAMDA
• TIE – Theatre in Education – encourage new writers to make more use of TIE – to cut their teeth as new writers by writing for schools (as part of curriculum). Good place for feedback.
• Ideas nights - for writers wanting to get some new ideas.
Producer specific training and opportunities
• Need to develop creative producers – those that are ready and willing to gamble on new work
• Courses for producers
o how to build backers
o How to lead as a producer
o Developing collaborations
o Finding the right people to work with (those who have shared values) – see “Online Dating for Musical Theatre” above
o Developing shared goals
• Set up Action Learning Networks (eg Surrey Creative Network) of new / developing producers (see Andrew Tilling)
o Finding the right people to work with (those who have shared values) – see “Online Dating for Musical Theatre” above
o Developing shared goals
• Set up Action Learning Networks (eg Surrey Creative Network) of new / developing producers (see Andrew Tilling)
How can we develop the use of dance in musical-theatre storytelling?
Convener: NICK PHILLIPS
Participants: Nick Phillips, Laurie Sansom, Andrew Grivan, Jennifer Toksvig, Andrew Girvan, Sarah Baker, Onur Orkut, Kit More,
We agreed to discuss the uses of dance that we recognise and try to distil the properties. Some participants admitted that lack of expertise in dance meant that they found it difficult to conceive in terms of the ‘writing’ process.
THE DREAM BALLET
It shows what is not said – non-literal.
TENSIONS IN SPACE – conveys matter of great import.
What ?
There is limited perception of ‘musical theatre’ dance style. What does this mean ? Usually theatre jazz – “jazz hands” !
We also label ‘dance theatre’ - pure dance which uses production values of musical theatre for the purposes of storytelling – Matthew Bourne.
Dance - the most heightened form of expression because of its abstraction.
Music aural abstraction – dance visual abstraction.
What does dance add to our expressive vocabulary as storytellers ?
What are the possible functions of dance ?
Can convey:
• Setting
• Time/Period
• Ethnicity
• Crucial social interactions –
• Separation
• Confrontation – martial arts
• Attraction/desire
• Tribal identity
• Manners/etiquette
• Celebration/ecstasy
With dance two worlds can exist simultaneously.
The dream ballet allows for subversion.
It is the ideal or subversion of that ideal – the ultimate vision
Dance is on a continuum of physicality.
It offers access to a world of transcendence – (tarantella/dervishes)
DANCE AS METAPHOR
CATS – not narrative really – intensification/decoration/amplification.
Dance allows us a freedom to join the dots.
DANCE ALLOWS YOU TO SEE THE MUSIC
Interesting when in film – the grammar of the camera is part of the choreography..
Questions arise about training – how truly diverse is it ?
We returned to the question – how do we include dance/physicalisation in collaboration ?
• It takes time
• It’s hard to put on paper
• It’s about creating the visceral thrill if a physical dynamic in space
• This about making work on its feet
WHAT IS THE FIRST SPRING FOR THE CHOREOGRAPHER/MOVEMENT DIRECTOR ? Recognised as massively diverse according to organic response to the idea.
KEY QUESTIONS
• How do we ‘set up’ the language of dance ?
• How do characters earn the right to dance ?
NP. 17/6/10
Participants: Nick Phillips, Laurie Sansom, Andrew Grivan, Jennifer Toksvig, Andrew Girvan, Sarah Baker, Onur Orkut, Kit More,
We agreed to discuss the uses of dance that we recognise and try to distil the properties. Some participants admitted that lack of expertise in dance meant that they found it difficult to conceive in terms of the ‘writing’ process.
THE DREAM BALLET
It shows what is not said – non-literal.
TENSIONS IN SPACE – conveys matter of great import.
What ?
There is limited perception of ‘musical theatre’ dance style. What does this mean ? Usually theatre jazz – “jazz hands” !
We also label ‘dance theatre’ - pure dance which uses production values of musical theatre for the purposes of storytelling – Matthew Bourne.
Dance - the most heightened form of expression because of its abstraction.
Music aural abstraction – dance visual abstraction.
What does dance add to our expressive vocabulary as storytellers ?
What are the possible functions of dance ?
Can convey:
• Setting
• Time/Period
• Ethnicity
• Crucial social interactions –
• Separation
• Confrontation – martial arts
• Attraction/desire
• Tribal identity
• Manners/etiquette
• Celebration/ecstasy
With dance two worlds can exist simultaneously.
The dream ballet allows for subversion.
It is the ideal or subversion of that ideal – the ultimate vision
Dance is on a continuum of physicality.
It offers access to a world of transcendence – (tarantella/dervishes)
DANCE AS METAPHOR
CATS – not narrative really – intensification/decoration/amplification.
Dance allows us a freedom to join the dots.
DANCE ALLOWS YOU TO SEE THE MUSIC
Interesting when in film – the grammar of the camera is part of the choreography..
Questions arise about training – how truly diverse is it ?
We returned to the question – how do we include dance/physicalisation in collaboration ?
• It takes time
• It’s hard to put on paper
• It’s about creating the visceral thrill if a physical dynamic in space
• This about making work on its feet
WHAT IS THE FIRST SPRING FOR THE CHOREOGRAPHER/MOVEMENT DIRECTOR ? Recognised as massively diverse according to organic response to the idea.
KEY QUESTIONS
• How do we ‘set up’ the language of dance ?
• How do characters earn the right to dance ?
NP. 17/6/10
Wednesday, 16 June 2010
The expense of AmDram & Educational performances of Musical Theatre works
Convener: Matt Finch
Participants: Matt Finch, Helen, Mary, Luke, Katie, Louisa, Andrew
For a youth group to perform a “Named” show – it costs them a minimum of £1000 for the rights to perform + 15% box office takings. This initial expense means that the groups end up creating juke box style musicals OR not at all. It costs £300 a time for Mary to hire scripts and scores to study (not even perform) in her classes. All these expenses mean that the Education of Musical Theatre, particularly at the grass root level, becomes limiting and does not challenge and excite the young.
We recognise that Licensing companies (Samuel French etc) are not going to reduce their fees for such education purposes.
Proposal:
But can we encourage NEW writers that when they ‘sign up’ to such companies (or set up on their own, which is becoming more familiar) that they might consider making some special concessions to the groups either financially (reduced rate), in restrictions of backing tracks/bands, venues etc compared to the Pros. This may encourage new work in the local theatres and schools, which in turn will increase the popularity of the show and new shows in general.
Online Conference Session
Lydia Bates: welcome all
Lydia Bates: adobe connect pro (wot this is) does all sorts of fantastic stuff with webcams and microphones and stuff, but for tonight we'll probably just do chat.
Lydia Bates: please feel free to introduce yourselves
Patri: Hi, Patricia Raine from the University of the Arts in PHiladelphia here. Sorry not to be with you in person. How is the conference going?
Lydia Bates: Hi Patricia, it's going really well. I'm going to try to upload some of the reports from the first sessions for you to look at. It should appear in the box to the bottom right.
Lydia Bates: in fact, I'll move this box so you can see where it will go - hold on a sec
Lydia Bates: ok, over in the file share box you will see half a dozen or so files. these are the quick notes written up after some of the sessions that have been held so far.
Lydia Bates: we have also had a fairly indepth discussion on the subject of ''why do people hate musical theatre?''
Lydia Bates: feel free to download, or not - the whole report will be available at the end of the conference
Patri: Thanks - just reading these. DO people hate the musical theatre?
Lydia Bates: some people do (in fairness, that subject was raised by our webeditor, who may well be on here later, but we're trying to change her mind.)
Lydia Bates: the discussion became quite a cathartic session, where people got to vent about what they saw as 'giving musical theatre a bad name'
Lydia Bates: so words like 'trite' 'shallow' 'contrived' and so on came up once or twice
Lydia Bates: and then discussions of what can be done to change the perception as well as changing musical theatre itself.
Lydia Bates: just to let you know who we have here in the room at the moment, we have representatives from FE (both students and staff), HE (Students and staff), performers, directors, writers, and press
Lydia Bates: and, not to make you jealous at all, but we're also about to tuck into bowls of scouse over here.
Lydia Bates: so who else do we have in the virtual room?
LozKaye: Ah the good old 'cultural cringe' about Musical Theatre question!...
Lydia Bates: we had quite a good discussion about whether it was a new art form that was finding its feet, or an old art form that was on it's last legs
Patri: Sorry - I had to take a minute to look up scouse before i could become jealous. Such an american!
Lydia Bates: scousers are named after the dish rather than the other way round
Lydia Bates: it's derived from a skandinavian dish called lobskause
LozKaye: Interesting, for me one of the key things about musical theatre in its various incarnations is that it has an 'popular' musical language.
LozKaye: Does this inevitably to 'trite content?
LozKaye: Or is it a way of communicating clearly and openly to an audience in a way that other forms of theatre could learn much from?
mark smith: I would love for more contempoary musicians to write for musical theatre e.g. neil hannon from divine comedy...thoughts
LozKaye: I suppose one of the things that feels like it needs renewing to me is musical language, to make it more contemporary as Mark says.
Lydia Bates: is the problem that musical story tellers are more attracted to 'pop' than theatre?
mark smith: probably so but would it not be possible for producers/venues to take a risk and commission pop artists in between albums? remember a pop career on the whole has a limited shelf life
LozKaye: There has to be a tie up between musical language and the story you are trying to tell.
mark smith: I agree but does the musical language represent what most people listen to on there i pod? wordsmith's in pop are numerous and may break the rythym of what has become quite a safe and stale art form. It also does not help that poor quality ideas transfer quite so easily from Edinburgh...Insert Current topic of the day stick musical on the end ?
LozKaye: OK signing out here. Pasta calls :D
Lydia Bates: ok, just trying to get a couple of delegates here signed in
Lydia Bates: ok, we now have Girv in the room - say hello girv, introduce yourself
Lydia Bates: and mark shenton (of The Stage fame) is also here
Andrew Girvan: Evening
mark smith: have been follwing marks tweets today very interesting as always
mark smith: Evening Girv
Mark Shenton: Thank you Mark. I've barely tweeted today, as have been up here....
Andrew Girvan: Hi, Patricia I managed to get to UArts as part of the LIPA exchange when I was in my first year
Andrew Girvan: I've recently finished LIPA's Music, Theatre and Entertainment Management degree
Mark Shenton: just catching up on discussion so far... see that Mark Smith suggests more contemporary writers should write musicals....
Mark Shenton: there are already plenty, actually, from Elton John, of course, to Boy George and Phil Collins....
Mark Shenton: but its a process, and they don't always ''get'' it....
Mark Shenton: (Elton John turned up to THE LION KING at the first preview, not the first rehearsal....)
Andrew Girvan: The concept of the contemporary musical is also an interesting one. What are these contemporary writers creating?
Mark Shenton: On the other hand, Rufus Wainwright really immersed himself in the process of creating PRIMA DONNA, an opera....
Mark Shenton: (behaving like one himself, of course!)...
Mark Shenton: To answer Andrew, Phil Collins writing TARZAN for B'way is hardly a good use of his contemporary skills...
Mark Shenton: It's opportunism... putting one well known name with another.... Collins meets Tarzan....
Andrew Girvan: The likes of Spring Awakening apparently broke the Musical theatre mode? But did they? Are the exciting musicals which have been so lauded at ceremonies just plays with songs?
Mark Shenton: The songs in SPRING AWAKENING were minutely embedded in tthe book...
mark smith: it was a suggestion of a slightly different approach in regards to Loz suggestion of the muscial language and my suggestion of does this refelct what most people listen to. Obviously each artist needs to believe in the story otherwise you will end up with rubbish
Mark Shenton: AMERICAN IDIOT -- based of course on a pop album -- is exactly what (some) people listen to.... I'd never actually heard it before I saw it in the theatre....
Mark Shenton: so it was all new to me....! But not rubbish at all. A really visceral howl of youthful musical angst....
Christina McDermott: We're discussing whether improvised music can only ever be applied to music.
Christina McDermott: I mean comedy!
Kit Moore: HELLO
Andrew Girvan: Hi KIt
Andrew Girvan: *Kit
Kit Moore: MORE
Kit Moore: NOT MOORE
Kit Moore: IM SHOUTING
Kit Moore: I CANT TURN CAPS LOCK OFF
Kit Moore: fixed.
Lydia Bates: Sorry Kit - my apoologies, i've spelt his name wrong and put him on an unremoveable capslock. he's not shouting, really
Lydia Bates: aah well done
Kit Moore: we are discussing how theatre companies, professional and in eduction can forge partershipsto create work
Kit Moore: hey esta!
Mark Shenton: am going to join one of the live discussions....
Kit Moore: yes do!
Kit Moore: onur is speaking
Patri: Hello Andrew, sorry I didn't respond earlier. I was out for a few minutes.
Mark Shenton: just joining session on whether we are training creative, thinking practioners in our actors?
Kit Moore: these people know what they are talking about... help!
Esther Dix: hey Kit, and hi all
Andrew Girvan: Hi Esther
Andrew Girvan: Thanks for the Twitter list of CANDE participants
Andrew Girvan: Patricia, it was wonderful to see a Musical Theatre course churning out such talented graduates
Andrew Girvan: to be able to sit in on proper MT classes and masterclasses was great
Kit Moore: I dont understand what my group are talking about
Christina McDermott: I'm telling lots of BTEC students about how great LIPA is.
Christina McDermott: Because it is
Kit Moore: GOOD!
Kit Moore: Dr Nick Phillips is the best teacher I have ever had
Kit Moore: come here for him!
mark smith: signing off dinner is ready have a good night
Mark Shenton: Jenifer Toksvig suggests students should be able to choose what they're interested in... but a teacher suggests that in the industry, you're required to do what you're told....
Kit Moore: nom nom
Mark Shenton: One student has realied that you've got to be carefully subversive, to deliver what is required, but can bring own artistic integrity to the role
Kit Moore: esta why aren't you here?
Mark Shenton: Where is the Improbable or Frantic Assembly of musical thatre, asks Jenifer Toksvig?
Patri: I was just catching up on the reports of discussions for the day. I was struck by one group's lament that there were too few passionate teachers of musical theater. I have to say that that is not my experience over here. On the other hand, I could certainly sympathize with the concerns of another group that we are rutning too many students out for the industry to handle.
Andrew Girvan: There was a rather interesting moment earlier when the tutors around the room counted how many graduates just they would be putting out into the industry at the end of the year
Andrew Girvan: then combining that with each of their years and the other schools around the country
Andrew Girvan: very suddenly we're counting MT graduates in the hundreds each summer
Andrew Girvan: and wondering where the jobs are for them
Andrew Girvan: The other side of that being the possibly thousands who have applied for the courses initially and might not have got in
Andrew Girvan: but may still therefore be trying to get work, the only difference being that they haven't been through the training
Andrew Girvan: the main feeling in the group I was in was that we should not feel guilty for training actors who might not be able to get acting jobs, they will still have been taught valuable transferable stills
Andrew Girvan: Which contribute to their ability to gain work in any number of fields, in the world of portfolio careers we are now faced with as graduates
Patri: I agree with that statement. There is a focus here currently on training students with a strong sense of entrepreneurship who could be able to create their own (and perhaps non-traditional) paths in the theatre.
Andrew Girvan: I think entrepreneurship is a very good way of looking at it
Kit Moore: we need the talking stick
Andrew Girvan: we might perhaps be looking at a ''multi faceted practitioner'' or some such nonsense over here, but it is a true realisation of entrepreneurship which is needed
Esther Dix: Perhaps we need to create the forms first, then see if they develop or break into mainstream musical theatre
Christina McDermott: I'm giving some students a pep talk. I feel like I should have some pom poms.
Christina McDermott: Also - someone has just told me that they like the web site. Which has brought a smile to this web editor's face!
Esther Dix: What I mean is, groundbreaking practitioners created their work, and because it was groundbreaking, it then shaped theatre for the future
Esther Dix: I mean people like Peter Brook, just for example
Patri: A change in topic: I was just reading the report on the ''belt'' group. Is it common in the UK for teachers to follow a certain vocal technique (i.e. Estill)?
Patri: I wrote a dissertation on musical theater vocal stules a few years back and think the profession owes a great deal to Jo's advances in understanding the science behind the belt voice.
Esther Dix: My experience is of classical teachers who I didn't expereince teaching a certain technique but more passing on their own experience, and then Estill. Both were vaulable but
Esther Dix: the understanding that Estil has given is so valuable to me
Esther Dix: in terms of actually understanding what is going on and in terms of knowing how to work in a sustainable and healthy way
Patri: However, one of the things I like so much about teaching musical theater singers is that there is no ''one size fits all'' approach - it is about bringing out the unique and individualsound in each performer.
Esther Dix: What about in the US? Is a certain technique usually followed?
Patri: There are several; there are many Estill practitioners as well as Seth Riggs (those are probably the most popular) but, generally, I think most teachers put together their own ''tool box'' of methods and pull out what is needed for the individual student.
Patri: I do quite a lot of clinics demonstrating for teachers how to teach belting and I find it tremendously useful to ''de-mystify'' the subject matter and be able to say what needs to happen with laryngeal position, pharynx space, tounge position, etc. That is the great contribution of researchers like Estill.
Esther Dix: Yes, that was so helpful to me
Patri: I'm not sure how much of that information is really useful for the student themselves to think about.
Esther Dix: Just depends on personality probably
Patri: I try to make the technique for the student reflexive and instinctive so that they can concentrate on the communication of the text, but you are no doubt right - it may be useful for some to have more technical awareness.
Esther Dix: The concrete physiological things that I realised my body could do created a belief that I would be able to do it
Esther Dix: But it would definiately depends on the individual as to whether that would help them
Patri: Thanks for your input!
Esther Dix: Patricia, I feel like everyone else must be engaged in some heated live debate!
Esther Dix: But it is good to hear your thought!
Patri: Seems so - it's pretty quiet out there.
Patri: I guess I'll sign off. Good to hear from you all - I wish you a productive time at the conference and am looking forward to reading the final reports!
Andrew Girvan: Very good to talk to you Patricia
Esther Dix: Ditto
Andrew Girvan: Who else is in the room?
Andrew Girvan: Any topics to be raised?
Esther Dix: I'm still here Andrew
Esther Dix: I would have loved to have been at this conference!
Andrew Girvan: Are you at home Esther?
Esther Dix: I'm just visiting my parents for a few days - home is Liverpool now!
Esther Dix: They live on Tiree so a bit far to come to the conference! Back on the 19th though
Esther Dix: Would you say their is a concensus of opinion or shared goals at the conference so far, or more of a divided debate?
Andrew Girvan: Thats a nice way to be able to look at this Northwest outpost of humanity! I mean Liverpool btw, not Tiree
Esther Dix: This has got me thinking about future-shaping in general
Andrew Girvan: There are a really mixed number of people here, so there are all sorts of opinions in the room
Esther Dix: I know it is idealistic but I think it is also true that people who change things care so much about making the world or their artform better
Esther Dix: that they do it whatever t takes
Esther Dix: I wonder if those people will emerge in musicla theatre?
Esther Dix: I believe this online debate ends in 2 minutes, so thank you and I will log on again if there is another one!
Patri: Goodbye Esther and Andrew! Hope our paths cross another time!
Andrew Girvan: Thanks Esther
Andrew Girvan: And Patricia, although I thought you had already left!
Lydia Bates: thanks all, I'm going to close this room now - thank you for logging on
Lydia Bates: adobe connect pro (wot this is) does all sorts of fantastic stuff with webcams and microphones and stuff, but for tonight we'll probably just do chat.
Lydia Bates: please feel free to introduce yourselves
Patri: Hi, Patricia Raine from the University of the Arts in PHiladelphia here. Sorry not to be with you in person. How is the conference going?
Lydia Bates: Hi Patricia, it's going really well. I'm going to try to upload some of the reports from the first sessions for you to look at. It should appear in the box to the bottom right.
Lydia Bates: in fact, I'll move this box so you can see where it will go - hold on a sec
Lydia Bates: ok, over in the file share box you will see half a dozen or so files. these are the quick notes written up after some of the sessions that have been held so far.
Lydia Bates: we have also had a fairly indepth discussion on the subject of ''why do people hate musical theatre?''
Lydia Bates: feel free to download, or not - the whole report will be available at the end of the conference
Patri: Thanks - just reading these. DO people hate the musical theatre?
Lydia Bates: some people do (in fairness, that subject was raised by our webeditor, who may well be on here later, but we're trying to change her mind.)
Lydia Bates: the discussion became quite a cathartic session, where people got to vent about what they saw as 'giving musical theatre a bad name'
Lydia Bates: so words like 'trite' 'shallow' 'contrived' and so on came up once or twice
Lydia Bates: and then discussions of what can be done to change the perception as well as changing musical theatre itself.
Lydia Bates: just to let you know who we have here in the room at the moment, we have representatives from FE (both students and staff), HE (Students and staff), performers, directors, writers, and press
Lydia Bates: and, not to make you jealous at all, but we're also about to tuck into bowls of scouse over here.
Lydia Bates: so who else do we have in the virtual room?
LozKaye: Ah the good old 'cultural cringe' about Musical Theatre question!...
Lydia Bates: we had quite a good discussion about whether it was a new art form that was finding its feet, or an old art form that was on it's last legs
Patri: Sorry - I had to take a minute to look up scouse before i could become jealous. Such an american!
Lydia Bates: scousers are named after the dish rather than the other way round
Lydia Bates: it's derived from a skandinavian dish called lobskause
LozKaye: Interesting, for me one of the key things about musical theatre in its various incarnations is that it has an 'popular' musical language.
LozKaye: Does this inevitably to 'trite content?
LozKaye: Or is it a way of communicating clearly and openly to an audience in a way that other forms of theatre could learn much from?
mark smith: I would love for more contempoary musicians to write for musical theatre e.g. neil hannon from divine comedy...thoughts
LozKaye: I suppose one of the things that feels like it needs renewing to me is musical language, to make it more contemporary as Mark says.
Lydia Bates: is the problem that musical story tellers are more attracted to 'pop' than theatre?
mark smith: probably so but would it not be possible for producers/venues to take a risk and commission pop artists in between albums? remember a pop career on the whole has a limited shelf life
LozKaye: There has to be a tie up between musical language and the story you are trying to tell.
mark smith: I agree but does the musical language represent what most people listen to on there i pod? wordsmith's in pop are numerous and may break the rythym of what has become quite a safe and stale art form. It also does not help that poor quality ideas transfer quite so easily from Edinburgh...Insert Current topic of the day stick musical on the end ?
LozKaye: OK signing out here. Pasta calls :D
Lydia Bates: ok, just trying to get a couple of delegates here signed in
Lydia Bates: ok, we now have Girv in the room - say hello girv, introduce yourself
Lydia Bates: and mark shenton (of The Stage fame) is also here
Andrew Girvan: Evening
mark smith: have been follwing marks tweets today very interesting as always
mark smith: Evening Girv
Mark Shenton: Thank you Mark. I've barely tweeted today, as have been up here....
Andrew Girvan: Hi, Patricia I managed to get to UArts as part of the LIPA exchange when I was in my first year
Andrew Girvan: I've recently finished LIPA's Music, Theatre and Entertainment Management degree
Mark Shenton: just catching up on discussion so far... see that Mark Smith suggests more contemporary writers should write musicals....
Mark Shenton: there are already plenty, actually, from Elton John, of course, to Boy George and Phil Collins....
Mark Shenton: but its a process, and they don't always ''get'' it....
Mark Shenton: (Elton John turned up to THE LION KING at the first preview, not the first rehearsal....)
Andrew Girvan: The concept of the contemporary musical is also an interesting one. What are these contemporary writers creating?
Mark Shenton: On the other hand, Rufus Wainwright really immersed himself in the process of creating PRIMA DONNA, an opera....
Mark Shenton: (behaving like one himself, of course!)...
Mark Shenton: To answer Andrew, Phil Collins writing TARZAN for B'way is hardly a good use of his contemporary skills...
Mark Shenton: It's opportunism... putting one well known name with another.... Collins meets Tarzan....
Andrew Girvan: The likes of Spring Awakening apparently broke the Musical theatre mode? But did they? Are the exciting musicals which have been so lauded at ceremonies just plays with songs?
Mark Shenton: The songs in SPRING AWAKENING were minutely embedded in tthe book...
mark smith: it was a suggestion of a slightly different approach in regards to Loz suggestion of the muscial language and my suggestion of does this refelct what most people listen to. Obviously each artist needs to believe in the story otherwise you will end up with rubbish
Mark Shenton: AMERICAN IDIOT -- based of course on a pop album -- is exactly what (some) people listen to.... I'd never actually heard it before I saw it in the theatre....
Mark Shenton: so it was all new to me....! But not rubbish at all. A really visceral howl of youthful musical angst....
Christina McDermott: We're discussing whether improvised music can only ever be applied to music.
Christina McDermott: I mean comedy!
Kit Moore: HELLO
Andrew Girvan: Hi KIt
Andrew Girvan: *Kit
Kit Moore: MORE
Kit Moore: NOT MOORE
Kit Moore: IM SHOUTING
Kit Moore: I CANT TURN CAPS LOCK OFF
Kit Moore: fixed.
Lydia Bates: Sorry Kit - my apoologies, i've spelt his name wrong and put him on an unremoveable capslock. he's not shouting, really
Lydia Bates: aah well done
Kit Moore: we are discussing how theatre companies, professional and in eduction can forge partershipsto create work
Kit Moore: hey esta!
Mark Shenton: am going to join one of the live discussions....
Kit Moore: yes do!
Kit Moore: onur is speaking
Patri: Hello Andrew, sorry I didn't respond earlier. I was out for a few minutes.
Mark Shenton: just joining session on whether we are training creative, thinking practioners in our actors?
Kit Moore: these people know what they are talking about... help!
Esther Dix: hey Kit, and hi all
Andrew Girvan: Hi Esther
Andrew Girvan: Thanks for the Twitter list of CANDE participants
Andrew Girvan: Patricia, it was wonderful to see a Musical Theatre course churning out such talented graduates
Andrew Girvan: to be able to sit in on proper MT classes and masterclasses was great
Kit Moore: I dont understand what my group are talking about
Christina McDermott: I'm telling lots of BTEC students about how great LIPA is.
Christina McDermott: Because it is
Kit Moore: GOOD!
Kit Moore: Dr Nick Phillips is the best teacher I have ever had
Kit Moore: come here for him!
mark smith: signing off dinner is ready have a good night
Mark Shenton: Jenifer Toksvig suggests students should be able to choose what they're interested in... but a teacher suggests that in the industry, you're required to do what you're told....
Kit Moore: nom nom
Mark Shenton: One student has realied that you've got to be carefully subversive, to deliver what is required, but can bring own artistic integrity to the role
Kit Moore: esta why aren't you here?
Mark Shenton: Where is the Improbable or Frantic Assembly of musical thatre, asks Jenifer Toksvig?
Patri: I was just catching up on the reports of discussions for the day. I was struck by one group's lament that there were too few passionate teachers of musical theater. I have to say that that is not my experience over here. On the other hand, I could certainly sympathize with the concerns of another group that we are rutning too many students out for the industry to handle.
Andrew Girvan: There was a rather interesting moment earlier when the tutors around the room counted how many graduates just they would be putting out into the industry at the end of the year
Andrew Girvan: then combining that with each of their years and the other schools around the country
Andrew Girvan: very suddenly we're counting MT graduates in the hundreds each summer
Andrew Girvan: and wondering where the jobs are for them
Andrew Girvan: The other side of that being the possibly thousands who have applied for the courses initially and might not have got in
Andrew Girvan: but may still therefore be trying to get work, the only difference being that they haven't been through the training
Andrew Girvan: the main feeling in the group I was in was that we should not feel guilty for training actors who might not be able to get acting jobs, they will still have been taught valuable transferable stills
Andrew Girvan: Which contribute to their ability to gain work in any number of fields, in the world of portfolio careers we are now faced with as graduates
Patri: I agree with that statement. There is a focus here currently on training students with a strong sense of entrepreneurship who could be able to create their own (and perhaps non-traditional) paths in the theatre.
Andrew Girvan: I think entrepreneurship is a very good way of looking at it
Kit Moore: we need the talking stick
Andrew Girvan: we might perhaps be looking at a ''multi faceted practitioner'' or some such nonsense over here, but it is a true realisation of entrepreneurship which is needed
Esther Dix: Perhaps we need to create the forms first, then see if they develop or break into mainstream musical theatre
Christina McDermott: I'm giving some students a pep talk. I feel like I should have some pom poms.
Christina McDermott: Also - someone has just told me that they like the web site. Which has brought a smile to this web editor's face!
Esther Dix: What I mean is, groundbreaking practitioners created their work, and because it was groundbreaking, it then shaped theatre for the future
Esther Dix: I mean people like Peter Brook, just for example
Patri: A change in topic: I was just reading the report on the ''belt'' group. Is it common in the UK for teachers to follow a certain vocal technique (i.e. Estill)?
Patri: I wrote a dissertation on musical theater vocal stules a few years back and think the profession owes a great deal to Jo's advances in understanding the science behind the belt voice.
Esther Dix: My experience is of classical teachers who I didn't expereince teaching a certain technique but more passing on their own experience, and then Estill. Both were vaulable but
Esther Dix: the understanding that Estil has given is so valuable to me
Esther Dix: in terms of actually understanding what is going on and in terms of knowing how to work in a sustainable and healthy way
Patri: However, one of the things I like so much about teaching musical theater singers is that there is no ''one size fits all'' approach - it is about bringing out the unique and individualsound in each performer.
Esther Dix: What about in the US? Is a certain technique usually followed?
Patri: There are several; there are many Estill practitioners as well as Seth Riggs (those are probably the most popular) but, generally, I think most teachers put together their own ''tool box'' of methods and pull out what is needed for the individual student.
Patri: I do quite a lot of clinics demonstrating for teachers how to teach belting and I find it tremendously useful to ''de-mystify'' the subject matter and be able to say what needs to happen with laryngeal position, pharynx space, tounge position, etc. That is the great contribution of researchers like Estill.
Esther Dix: Yes, that was so helpful to me
Patri: I'm not sure how much of that information is really useful for the student themselves to think about.
Esther Dix: Just depends on personality probably
Patri: I try to make the technique for the student reflexive and instinctive so that they can concentrate on the communication of the text, but you are no doubt right - it may be useful for some to have more technical awareness.
Esther Dix: The concrete physiological things that I realised my body could do created a belief that I would be able to do it
Esther Dix: But it would definiately depends on the individual as to whether that would help them
Patri: Thanks for your input!
Esther Dix: Patricia, I feel like everyone else must be engaged in some heated live debate!
Esther Dix: But it is good to hear your thought!
Patri: Seems so - it's pretty quiet out there.
Patri: I guess I'll sign off. Good to hear from you all - I wish you a productive time at the conference and am looking forward to reading the final reports!
Andrew Girvan: Very good to talk to you Patricia
Esther Dix: Ditto
Andrew Girvan: Who else is in the room?
Andrew Girvan: Any topics to be raised?
Esther Dix: I'm still here Andrew
Esther Dix: I would have loved to have been at this conference!
Andrew Girvan: Are you at home Esther?
Esther Dix: I'm just visiting my parents for a few days - home is Liverpool now!
Esther Dix: They live on Tiree so a bit far to come to the conference! Back on the 19th though
Esther Dix: Would you say their is a concensus of opinion or shared goals at the conference so far, or more of a divided debate?
Andrew Girvan: Thats a nice way to be able to look at this Northwest outpost of humanity! I mean Liverpool btw, not Tiree
Esther Dix: This has got me thinking about future-shaping in general
Andrew Girvan: There are a really mixed number of people here, so there are all sorts of opinions in the room
Esther Dix: I know it is idealistic but I think it is also true that people who change things care so much about making the world or their artform better
Esther Dix: that they do it whatever t takes
Esther Dix: I wonder if those people will emerge in musicla theatre?
Esther Dix: I believe this online debate ends in 2 minutes, so thank you and I will log on again if there is another one!
Patri: Goodbye Esther and Andrew! Hope our paths cross another time!
Andrew Girvan: Thanks Esther
Andrew Girvan: And Patricia, although I thought you had already left!
Lydia Bates: thanks all, I'm going to close this room now - thank you for logging on
How does one find a writing partner?
Convener: Matt Finch
Participants: Dr. Nick + Andrew
Do I need a writing partner? No – but we do need :
Time to Impro
Time to play
+ mentoring.
Without mentoring and feedback from a true audience (not just family and friends) the work does not grow and we do not learn – which are 2 big reasons for writing.
Mixing different styles of composer, lyricist, book writers can produce something different and possibly break the convention of 2 people make a writing partnerships
ACTION: Possible sharing of resources, mentors, performers, audience – in summer months
Rather than thinking about the “How” will I go about writing a musical – we should ask the question “Why?” or “What?”
Need a Producer who will risk. Get the artists together and throw them in a room and give them time to play, create and learn.
Participants: Dr. Nick + Andrew
Do I need a writing partner? No – but we do need :
Time to Impro
Time to play
+ mentoring.
Without mentoring and feedback from a true audience (not just family and friends) the work does not grow and we do not learn – which are 2 big reasons for writing.
Mixing different styles of composer, lyricist, book writers can produce something different and possibly break the convention of 2 people make a writing partnerships
ACTION: Possible sharing of resources, mentors, performers, audience – in summer months
Rather than thinking about the “How” will I go about writing a musical – we should ask the question “Why?” or “What?”
Need a Producer who will risk. Get the artists together and throw them in a room and give them time to play, create and learn.
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